*Grumble grumble*
"I just can't help it. I sin all the time, and I even know better!"
*Grumble grumble*
Seriously? If we are God's children, this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Imagine telling this to your parents....
"Mom, I just can't help it. I disobey you all the time -- you told me to run to the grocery store for you, and I got in the car and drove to the videogame store and never did pick up your groceries -- I even knew better!"
or,
"Dad, I know you told me to clean my room, but I didn't. Instead, I called my friend up and went over to his house to hang out. I couldn't help it!"
It wouldn't fly. You might manage to say it...before you got taken to the woodshed and punished for being flagrantly disobedient and rebellious.
God isn't an unreasonable Father. We have no reason to complain about what He asks us to do, and we have no reason not to do what He asks us to do.
Don't tell me that you can have sin in your life and still be pleasing to God. It's not true.
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (I John 3:5-6)
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People often say that they "could not help themselves." They use it as an excuse, as if there is an excuse. There is no excuse, in fact. Sin cannot be excused. People do sin, however, and when they do that sin, they are supposed to confess it and be forgiven.
The response should not be "Please forgive me, Father, I could not help myself." (He already new that you could not help yourself.) The response should be "Please forgive me, Father. I chose to deny Your power in my life."
A father may see fit to forgive and not bestow discipline because he sees that the confession and the shame that went with it were sufficient. Or, maybe, a father may see fit to forgive and bestow discipline because he sees that the confession is heartfelt but deserves discipline for further deterrence of the evil. A father is displeased with every evil thing, but he does not give up his child to the world just because of that single evil. Children are renounced when their evil has reached such a point a father deems it good to "deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5).
A child that seeks to obey his father does not always do as he is told, but that does not cause the father to throw him out of his house. If the child totally ignores his father or if the child only speaks as if he seeks to obey, then the father throws him out.
My point is that we CAN help it. We don't disobey God because we couldn't help ourselves; we disobey God because we could help ourselves, and we decide to rebel against Him.
You make the statement that "A child that seeks to obey his father does not always do as he is told." I don't believe that's true. Exactly the opposite is true. A child who truly seeks to obey his father will do exactly that. The child will always obey his father. First, because the child WANTS to obey; and second, because the father will do all he can to help the child to be obedient.
Or do you believe it is impossible to live in entire obedience to God?
As a man, you cannot help yourself. You can only choose to allow God to help you. (God enables all ability. Because of him, we have the mind and the body to do things.)
Does a child always do as his father tells him? No. Because the child does not always do as he is told, does he suddenly not become his father's child? In fact, you may not always want to do as you're told, but you know it's right, so you do it anyway. It could be argued that that isn't truly obedience, but it serves to make a point: service is not always the deepest desire of your heart even if you do serve.
It is not impossible to leave in total obedience to God. But we do not always choose to permit God to be part of our lives; it is a fact. That doesn't mean that we've suddenly fallen totally away from God (a irregular sin does not suddenly modify us to the state of someone who lives in sin--sins constantly or sins regularly); God hasn't ceased to love us and offer us His power to do the right thing. So we re-commit to God, asking Him to work out everything for His glory through our bodies, minds, and souls.
[Blogger apparently has instituted a limit on comment length... much to my chagrin.]
I agree that it is only God who enables us to have any ability at all, and that it is only by allowing God to work in us and through us that we can fulfill His will.
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Regarding children: you've confused the subject. At first you said "A child that seeks to obey his father does not always do as he is told." And now you're saying "A child..." (as in, "any child", regardless of whether or not he truly seeks to obey his father). There is a significant difference between the two.
There are two senses in which men are (or may be) children of God. You've confused the two.
The first is to be a child of God (in a generic sense) -- in fact, Paul points out that ALL men are children of God:
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (Acts 17)
In this sense, no level of disobedience will cause us to cease being our Father's child.
The second (which is VERY different) is to be a child of God (specifically, as opposed to being a "child of the devil") -- this sonship is expressly addressed by John:
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (I John 3)
In this sense, a "child of God" is one who does the works of God. Jesus uses this idea of sonship:
"They [the Jews] answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8)
In this sense, you are a child of whom you obey. Children of God do the works of God. Paul puts it this way: "to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey" -- you are denominated by whom you obey.
You are a child of God (in the first sense) regardless of your disobedience, whether it is flagrant or only irregular; you are a child of God (in the second sense) ONLY if you are a child who truly seeks to obey his Father.
As I said before, a child who truly seeks to obey his father will always do so. First, because the child wants to, and second (and no less importantly), because the father wants and helps him to.
[...Part 2]
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If we do not always choose to permit God to be part of our lives, let me ask you this: what about those times when we do not allow God to be a part of our lives? Is God, at those times, not a part of our lives? Or is God a part of our lives whether we choose to permit Him to be so or not? If God is not a part of our lives when we do not permit Him to be so, how is that any different than saying that "we have fallen totally away from God"? If God IS a part of our lives regardless of our choice to disallow Him to be so, then are you universalist? For surely this is the state of the unrepentant sinner: he does not choose to permit God to be part of his life.
You go on to say "God hasn't ceased to love us and offer us His power to do the right thing." I agree 100%. But to say this is NOT the same as to say that you are still saved or in right relationship to God. God loves all men, and offers His power to do the right thing to all men, but not all men are saved.
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I also want to say... If we are children who truly and honestly want to obey our Father, we will indeed obey Him. AND not only that, but we will obey willingly, cheerfully, and wholeheartedly. Why? Because we want to! Because of who our Father is and what He has done! Because He loves us! Because we love Him more than we love ourselves! Because He empowers us to! Yes, sometimes we will want to do other things, because what He has commanded isn't as pleasureable for the moment, but we will still choose to do what He wants us to do, because we know that His way is best. And that choice to obey Him is the evidence that we truly do seek to obey our Father.
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I also want to note... I could pull in a couple personal experiences that are very relevant to the subjects of "children who want to obey their parents" and "cheerfully choosing to do something that isn't what I want to do", and I'd like to share them -- but I find it to be poor argumentation when I hear others do so, and so I refrain from relying on examples from personal experience to support my points. However...they are relevant, and if you want to hear them, let me know -- in fact, sometime soon we (maybe some other friends, too!) should get together and discuss these topics at greater length. I think it would a profitable, interesting, and enjoyable discussion!
Wow, Andrew, I'm quite pleasantly lost. I'm impressed, for the depth of your responses are quite worthy of discussion. (Also, your depth of consideration continues to be characteristic of yourself.) My mind is currently distracted, so I deem a response at this time would be jumbled and comparably unwise. So, I guess the question or the issue we have here is: when does obedience to God or Satan (or self) tell or show when someone is a child of God or the devil? Is your Bible study still on Tuesday nights? I suppose that may be a good time for this topic since it is already a good get together. (Your humility of accommodation for such a discussion over the standard fellowship time is righteously laudable; however, do not feel obliged. Bring it to the attention of the majority first, I would say. But I trust your judgement for whatever else you decide instead of my plans brought about by needless rambling.)
Yes, Bible study is still on tuesdays, 5:30PM - 8:30PM in the PUB. You're more than welcome to come!
I'm curious to know where I lost you...perhaps you could elaborate on that.
I was lost purely by the weariness of my mind and the rush of my reading. Upon re-reading, I follow.
A thought occurred in me: this is a doctrinal/theological discussion. The idea that Christians can sin and remain saved is my belief. The idea that Christians do not or cannot sin and, thus, remain saved is your belief. Correct?
Does the fact that it is a doctrinal/theological discussion change your approach to it? If so, why?
I'm not sure if your statement is correct, because I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Let me see if I do:
You believe that a Christian can sin (once? twice? a hundred times?) and remain saved.
I believe that a Christian is able to sin, but does not. I believe that if a Christian sins (once, twice, or a hundred times), then they have chosen to forsake the Lord, and are no longer saved. I'm pretty sure I made my position clear in my blog post, when I quoted I John 3:5-6. But to restate my position, it is simply this: "He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;" Liars don't go to heaven.
But we are pleasing to God even though we sin because in His eyes, we are sinless. We may agonize over past sins in prayer, but God has already forgiven us, and washed us clean and is wondering why we keep talking about it. This isn't to say we should keep sinning because we are covered by grace. It just means that no matter how much we fail, God's grace is more than enough.
And another thing: we do not avoid sin by our own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit conforming us to the image of God. So we shouldn't try to be sinless, we should just allow God to work in our lives and die to our flesh nature and live in Him.
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