Modesty (From a Woman's Perspective)

I was discussing the topic of modesty with some of my friends a while ago, and then just recently it resurfaced, and I believe that their perspective is valuable, so I have attempted to refine the ideas expressed (instant messenger conversations are kind of hard to work with) – and here they are.

Andrew: Andrew Powers (me)
Sarah: Sarah Ganzhorn
Hannah: Hannah Ganzhorn
Nalani: Nalani Brisco
Alicia: Alicia Powers

Sarah: Have you ever noticed that articles talking about modesty are normally focused on women being modest and most of the time don't even mention the fact that men also should be modest?

Andrew: Sometimes it bothers me...but I think it's probably because guys think about it more.

What were your thoughts on the "modesty for guys" topic?

Sarah: Men may be visually oriented... but girls also are – maybe not to such an extent but it is still there, and it still causes problems.

Andrew: So what ways should men be modest?

Sarah: I don't want to get on a soapbox or anything but I think that men can be modest in pretty much all the same ways women should be. For example, men are always saying that when women wear really tight pants it causes them problems – well, men wearing rather tight pants cause women to have problems as well.

Nalani: A guy can be immodest by being vulgar (either in his self-representation or his speech [like if he swears a lot or makes a lot of sexual innuendos (being pervy!)])....ummm....hmmm....being arrogant and proud to a fault...

Hannah: In speech, behavior, and appearance…specifically, immodesty in speech and behavior pretty much equals flirting, which can include ridiculously outrageous compliments, being smart or witty with the sole intent of attracting, showing off strength, etc.

Modesty of dress is not using one's body to attract, modest clothing would not be too loose (as in descending pants), too tight (as in bicycling tights), or too skimpy.

Alicia: I think the modesty for guys probably comes in character. Arrogant and proud or humble.

Andrew: To me it seems that a lot of times immodesty in a guy exhibits itself in different forms than girls (where clothing is the major issue)...with guys, immodesty can be not in the clothes so much as in, say, the muscular body, or the fast/loud car, etc.

Sarah: Mmm, yes that’s true, also, girls' immodesty is not limited to clothes – she can dress modestly and not behave modestly.

Andrew: Right. So what is modesty, then?

Nalani: Well, there's modesty as being humble, and then there's physical modesty--wearing clothes that aren't terribly revealing

Sarah: The definition for modest would be the opposite of immodest, and my opinion of immodest would be intentionally attracting the attention of the opposite gender in a way that would cause them to lust, etc.

Basically, anything that is immodest for a girl, the male version of it is also immodest. So, just like girls being immodest because they are wearing really tight pants, it is the same with guys wearing really tight pants.

Hannah: Immodesty is dressing or behaving in a way that encourages impure thoughts or actions….modesty is dressing and behaving in a way that is above reproach.

Andrew: Ok....so immodest actions for a girl can be flirting, acting provocatively (body postures, shoe choice, etc.), etc......so what do guys do (or wear, or say) etc., that fits into the "immodest" category?

Nalani: It kind of depends on what you think of as indecent. I'm not too fond of the way baggy pants some guys wear... and lots of older folks don't appreciate all of the holes in pants (or other clothing) that reveal all that skin. And unless it's swimwear, I would say no really short shorts either, and no rips/holes in the clothing that could potentially expose their privates…

Hannah: I think guys are as guilty as flirting of girls.... they do a lot of showing off... so far as what they wear... pants can easily be to big, or too tight ( as in bicycling shorts) and I really would rather they keep their shirts on.

Sarah: You want specifics? Well, guys can also have provocative body postures, guys can also flirt...I guess you could say the big guy thing is to show off to get all the girls attention, you know, to show that he is the strongest or whatever

I would say that guys' shirts should meet their pants at all times – same as for girls.

The saggy pants business is so bad, and tight shirts aren't that great either.

Andrew: So then, does immodesty have something to do with "showing off"....and if so, what is it that guys do to "show off" that "intentionally attracts the attention of the opposite gender in a way that would cause them to lust"?

Sarah: I think showing off is a good example of immodest behavior, well, girls are attracted to strong men, so I guess when a guy goes out of his way to seem strong in front of a girl then that would be immodest behavior indeed.

Hannah: In my experience, it's mostly body, brains, and personality… I don't really notice the showing off of stuff... except maybe having a 'hot' car, but so far as intentionally attracting, a lot of guys will be gentlemanly just as a chance to show off how strong they are or whatever, I've heard a lot of girls oohing and ahhing over how buff some guy is.

They’ll pay me outrageous compliments, or try to be really smart because they think I am. Usually that's accompanied by asking me out.

It's not so much what they do but what they say.

Andrew: So would you say that a lot of the "immodest" actions are efforts on the guy's part to make you prefer him over others --- so really anything that flows from that motivation is truly "immodest"?

Hannah: Yes... I guess you could say that... there are exceptions though…

Such as… you can't really call a guy who wants his wife to like him better than other guys immodest

So I would say it's only immodest if the guy hasn't the right .

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I could probably write a wordy conclusion to this “interview”…but Hannah’s paraphrase of Paul is perfectly apt; she says it is really about how “guys should concern themselves not only with keeping their own thoughts pure but also the thoughts of their sisters in Christ.”

I completely agree. This is the true attitude of charity – not using our liberty as a cloak for selfishness (I Peter 2:16), not destroying others through our actions (Romans 14:13-15), and taking heed that our liberty does not become a stumblingblock to those that are weak (I Cor. 8:9). “Let every one of us please his [sister] for [her] good to edification” (Romans 15:2)…. “Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth” (I Cor. 10:24).